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  1. #1
    Still Shakin' the Cage 08Rhino450SE's Avatar
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    Improve Your Grounding by SteveS

    IMPROVE YOUR GROUNDING
    by SteveS

    condensed from HotRodRhinoForums.com to HotRodForums.net
    photos and illustrations to follow

    original post can be found at:
    http://hotrodrhinoforums.forumotion....your-grounding

    There are frequent happenings of grounding wire problems that have been reported over the years. This usually shows up as an overheated wire or connector within a pigtail that originates at the battery negative terminal and plugs into a bullet connector that is on a short pigtail that comes out of the wire harness behind the battery.



    This circuit definitely will fry while you are cranking the engine, if the heavy black cable coming from the battery negative terminal has a poor connection at the far end, where it is bolted onto the engine case. I consider this a poor design, as the disconnected battery cable forces the starter motor current to find another path back to the negative terminal of the battery. This can destroy the wire harness and other light-weight wiring that may be in the pathway. Another weak point is that any current from any accessory loads that are grounded to the frame is forced to go through this small pigtail. So, large lighting or stereo systems grounded this way, rather than directly to the battery, tend to burn this circuit up.

    Step one of the solution is to disconnect the pigtail's quick connect and cut off the wire going to the battery.



    Put a matching bullet connector on the end of a black wire at least as big as the stock wiring and plug it into the connector on the pigtail coming out of the harness. Ground the other end of this new wire onto a known grounded frame member. Make sure that you create a good connection by scraping the paint off of the frame and smear everything with dielectric grease before assembling the connection. Beware that some frame members are simply bolted on and do not ensure a good electrical connection the the welded frame proper. This step creates a known good ground connection for the wire harness.

    The next step is to create a heavy duty ground connection for the frame itself. My preference is to ground the engine case to the frame, as this is a repeated failure point that has been reported. I recommend connecting a 10 gauge wire connection, from the same point that the heavy black cable is connected to the engine case, and tying that to the frame member under and alongside the engine.

    It can be difficult to find a chunk of real heavy wire, so a pair of 12 ga wires will be just as good, if not better. There is a threaded hole in the vicinity, that is used to anchor a tie-down loop for the radiator water tubing down there. Again, here you want to scrape the paint off of the frame and use the dielectric grease to ensure that you have a permanent electrical connection.

    Others have simply created a connection from the battery negative terminal to the frame member behind the battery. This does work at first glance. However, if it is done this way, it does not prevent the burning up of an unknown weakest wire that happens to be making the return circuit from engine case to the frame. For example, this might be the ground side connection for a sensor on the engine, or similar. The factory setup does not deliberately electrically connect the engine to the frame anywhere. The above suggested 'low road' approach does address this failure mode.

    –NEW POST–
    Workhorserhino wrote:
    This is very good advice, and well explained. The only thing I would add is use a star washer when bolting cable fast. Provides a little bite to it. The other is use the dielectric grease over top the finished connection. I was told from a Cummins guru dielectric grease doesn't conduct electricity. Or include it in a yearly maintenance program to clean it.

    SteveS wrote:
    What really happens even with two pieces of bare metal is that there are only the high spots touching (at the microscopic level) anyway. The low spots that are not actually touching are the pathway for air and water to get into the joint and form corrosion. What really happens with the grease in between is that it gets squeezed out as you clamp down on the joint, which makes those same high spots come together and make the same metal to metal electrical contact as without the grease. The grease is there in the low spots to seal those pathways that would promote internal corrosion.


    –NEW POST–
    madmax 1 wrote:
    hey steves where is the pigtails quick connect and the wire I cut off going to the battery? i don't see any other wire with a bullet connector other than the green w/ white strip next to it i am confused

    SteveS wrote:
    Oh, the pigtail (black wire) is up at the battery. There is a small black wire that is bundled (along with the black battery cable) into the lug that bolts onto the negative battery cable. You will find that black wire travels to the rear, where it meets a disconnect on a black wire that goes into the wire harness. If that small wiring is in good shape you can cut it off at where it goes onto the lug and connect it to the frame instead. You will then not have a ground connection to the battery until you do the heavy gauge wire hook-up from motor case to the frame down low as is shown in the picture.
    Sorry about the confusion, Here is a pix that I stole off of another site.....



    –NEW POST–
    madmax 1 wrote:
    o i thought that's the one you meant but what is the green and yellow in your pic

    madmax 1 wrote:
    or can i just ground it to the frame close to the battery or should i do it where you did your g/y wire

    SteveS wrote:
    That one is for grounding the green/white reverse switch wire should it fail. This fix has to do with the common problem where the reverse rev limiter kicks in at around 25 MPH. Green with yellow stripe was the closest match that I had.

    You can ground the pigtail wire anywhere that you have a good solid ground. The cross-member behind the battery would likely be a good point (the rectifier/regulator is grounded there I believe). Just make sure that whatever you are grounding to is electrically connected to the frame proper (not just bolted on, paint to paint surfaces). Scrape the paint off where you are making the connection and use some dielectric grease between the lug and frame to prevent future corrosion.

    What this combination of fixes is aiming to do is to improve the ground by using heavy gauge wire and also getting rid of a bad potential pathway for over-currenting the wimpy pigtail wire that Yamaha provided.

    –NEW POST–
    madmax 1 wrote:
    great thanks for all your help steve i really needed your help you are the man

    SteveS wrote:
    You are welcome. May your wiring live long and prosper.

    –NEW POST–
    txgrown1404 wrote:
    hey steve do you happen to know what size bolt fits into the threaded hole on the frame where you ground from the engine. does the battery need to be grounded to the engine or can you just ground straight to the frame?

    SteveS wrote:
    I don't remember exactly, but M5 maybe, or M6 probably. Where I grounded already had a bolt there for attaching a clamp for the metal water line, if I remember correctly. So you will likely be able to use the same bolt. Make sure that you scrape the paint off around that threaded hole in the frame and make sure that all of the parts that you stack up are clean bare metal all the way up the stack. Also, put a generous coating of silicone dielectric grease on all of the surfaces and the threads of the bolt so that it will not corrode down the road. I recommend 10 gauge, even bigger is better. 10 gauge wire is not something that everybody has laying around and crimp terminals as well, so running 2 separate 12 gauge wires (parallel connection) is as good or better.

    The battery negative terminal is already connected to the engine via the black 6 gauge cable that you are going to piggy-back onto at the engine case. It is there to serve as the return path for the starter motor feed, so it is really beefy. Review the picture that I posted; it is mostly hidden by the other wires that I have stacked onto it but it is there to (barely) see. Use the silicone dielectric there too.
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  3. #2
    Still Shakin' the Cage 08Rhino450SE's Avatar
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    –NEW POST–
    kris55 wrote:
    The only part about this write up I understand at all is the extra ground from the engine to the frame hole the water hose clamp uses, and I think I understand the part where Chris H added an extra bat cable wire from the - post to the frame, so now he has 2 - bat cables from the - post to the frame?

    Is this a correct understanding so far? If so is this sufficient enough for me to leave it at this, without trying to figure out the pigtail part? I hope so cause that one has me all sorts of lost. I am not a fan of electrical stuff at all. I'll stick to my machining instead! lol

    SteveS wrote:
    Extra ground connections do not hurt. Very heavy wire(s) are what you want.

    I'll try to explain the reason that I am advocating and the reason for cutting the wire harness pigtail away from the battery negative cable clamp and reconnecting it to the frame instead:

    A common failure mode that can and will burn up the wire harness grounding wire is a failure of the ground battery cable connection at the engine case. This connection can fail from corrosion between the cable lug and engine case, or from simply becoming loose. It does happen. The problem this causes is a loss of the intended ground path of the starter motor to the battery negative terminal. The engine case is not deliberately connected to the frame and its connection to the wire harness wiring is accidental, through things like small gauge wire to sending units and the like (if any at all). Without the proper ground path to the battery negative when you crank the engine it draws a huge current and has to find an alternative path to the battery. This turns out to be through that little pigtail wire and it's grounding wire in the wire harness. It cannot handle the current and melts down. When you disconnect the pigtail from the battery the starter current cannot find an alternative path to the battery, so the wiring is saved. The problem is that the electrical system has lost its ground altogether, so we attach the pigtail to a known good grounding point on the frame. Another problem then becomes obvious, and that is the frame is not connected to the battery negative terminal, so we put a very heavy wire between the engine case ground cable connection point to the frame. The electrical pathway is now completed and all works as it should.



    The reason that I advise making the heavy ground connection at the engine case rather than from battery negative terminal to frame is related to the possible failure of the battery negative cable connection to the frame and those accidental ground connections that I was mentioning. When the ground connection to the engine case and the ground connection to the frame are siamesed together, the chances are better that both ground paths fail together. Ideally, the engine simply does not crank at all until you fix the bad connection at the engine case.



    I realize that this is a bit convoluted, please do comment if it is not understandable or questionable.



    –NEW POST–
    ChrisH wrote:
    I used 6AWG. It is so simple and could possibly save you a lot of grief.

    SteveS wrote:
    6 gauge will certainly do the trick! The problem is cutting the wire and then crimping on the ring terminals (called lugs when they get this big). It takes a really hefty tool to do the crimping. I modified a copper tubing swaging vise (a pair of heavy steel parallel bars with half moon holes facing each other, meant to wrap around the tubing to grip it axially). With the 6 ga lug held between the pair of undersized divots, I then mashed the bars together in a big vise. It worked, but I later bought a proper hydraulic crimping tool at Harbor Freight to do that job. Much easier!
    For what it is worth, 2 10 gauge wires in parallel (side by side, same point to same point) comes fairly close to the same current capacity as a single 6 gauge cable. 3 paralleled 12 ga is similar to the 2x 10 ga. 2 paralleled 8 ga wires is capable of more than the single 6 ga. The wire, ring terminals and crimping tools are much easier to come by for 10 gauge. And the last of the trivia, the stock battery cable in the Rhino seems to be 6 gauge.

    –NEW POST–
    kris55 wrote:
    I think I have a better idea now. if there's a pic of it after your grounding it to the frame please post it if possible. Hopefully Saturday I can get this all done and my winch put back in and have it work also, I think it just needed to be cleaned out, that's another post I have though. If I get stumped Saturday I may be lighting up this thread again with more questions, lol, hopefully not though. Thanks for the help so far!!

    SteveS wrote:
    Sorry, no picture. Cut the pigtail wire off of the negative battery terminal lug right at where it comes out of the lug . Strip the insulation off of the end of that wire end and crimp on a ring terminal to fit the bolt that you intend to use to make the ground connection (1/4" for what I describe later). connect that end of the wire to the frame cross-member running side to side behind the battery. There is a Rectifier/Regulator module bolted onto that crossbar in close proximity to the battery. Remove the R/R mounting bolt closest to the battery, clean all of the contacting surfaces and apply dielectric grease, put the bolt through the ring terminal, put the bolt back in through the R/R module and tighten it up. Alternatively, you can drill and tap (perhaps M5 metric or #10-32 inch system) a new hole into that cross-member anywhere that you would like. scrape the paint off around that hole so that the ring terminal will make good electrical contact. Bolt the ring terminal down there after you have applied the dielectric grease to both mating surfaces.

    –NEW POST–
    WV Hot Rod Rhino wrote:
    get a extra ground wire and run it from the motor to the frame and your good i think

    REDRHINO64 wrote:
    That's what I did...no problems!

    SteveS wrote:
    Ahhh yes, it will seemingly work, unless or until that connection at the engine case gets loose or corroded. Then Mother nature, with the help of Zeus the Thunder god, will find her way for that current to get back to the battery negative terminal. Unless you disconnect the pigtail from the battery, that is the path that will be found and smoked.
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  5. #3
    Still Shakin' the Cage 08Rhino450SE's Avatar
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    updated new pix & diagrams 03/23/15
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    Mountaineers are Always Free!



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  7. #4
    Most Senior member SteveS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 08Rhino450SE View Post
    ............
    .......................................
    ____________________________________
    http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww240/supallas/SteveSJBS%2048w_zpsg8cskcue.jpg ...... 2004 660 Camo, "Rhino". And now, also a Wolverine X4. "Wolfy".
    |___________________________________
    | Two roads diverged in a wood,
    | I took the one less traveled by....
    | Oh, Oh .

    | .............
    | ...............
    | ............... #
    |___________________________________

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  9. #5
    Most Senior member SteveS's Avatar
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    A bump to the top.... And also a link to another thread that relates to this grounding, the original from the old site. This link has lots of gory pictures which show what happens when the harness ground wire goes big time bad....

    http://hotrodrhinoforums.forumotion....your-grounding

    This thread would be a good one to have migrated over from the old forum. Pretty please?
    ____________________________________
    http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww240/supallas/SteveSJBS%2048w_zpsg8cskcue.jpg ...... 2004 660 Camo, "Rhino". And now, also a Wolverine X4. "Wolfy".
    |___________________________________
    | Two roads diverged in a wood,
    | I took the one less traveled by....
    | Oh, Oh .

    | .............
    | ...............
    | ............... #
    |___________________________________

  10. #6
    Super Moderator Firefighter's Avatar
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    Thanks Denny and Steve ! This is a VERY good Thread !

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  12. #7
    Most Senior member SteveS's Avatar
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    IF YOU HAVE EXTENDED GROUNDING DAMAGE WITHIN THE WIRE HARNESS ::::::
    Some interesting things related to widespread damage within the wire harness from a ground overload:
    http://hotrodrhinoforums.forumotion....problem-solved
    ____________________________________
    http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww240/supallas/SteveSJBS%2048w_zpsg8cskcue.jpg ...... 2004 660 Camo, "Rhino". And now, also a Wolverine X4. "Wolfy".
    |___________________________________
    | Two roads diverged in a wood,
    | I took the one less traveled by....
    | Oh, Oh .

    | .............
    | ...............
    | ............... #
    |___________________________________

  13. #8
    Still Shakin' the Cage 08Rhino450SE's Avatar
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    l
    i put the link to the original post on the first post above.
    if anyone has better pix or information that can be added to above post or suggestions, send me a pm and i'll send you my email address to forward for editing
    this site isn't quite as "picture friendly" as the other site but i'm still learning
    Mountaineers are Always Free!



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  15. #9
    Most Senior member SteveS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 08Rhino450SE View Post
    l
    i put the link to the original post on the first post above.
    if anyone has better pix or information that can be added to above post or suggestions, send me a pm and i'll send you my email address to forward for editing
    this site isn't quite as "picture friendly" as the other site but i'm still learning
    Thanks again for bringing all of that stuff over to this site. I'm a bit leery of using links to the old site, as the thread links would break if the site was ever to go away. One problem with the pictures is that the original links may break if they were saved locally to the original web site. I use a image host site that has been around for a long, long, time and hope that they will be around even longer. Also, the link will be usable regardless of what site you happen to be posting on. That site is now charging for the hosting, but I figure that will allow them to stay in business and maintain the site.

    If you use the 'reply to (with quote)' function, the image links are there, along with the text; to copy, paste and save as text, the entire post contents. Then, back out of the reply without saving, such that you do not contaminate the original source thread. The entire post, with pictures, then can be pasted into a different forum in order to propagate the message. The imbedded pictures will have the bracketing HTML code ( ), which will be universal for any site. Unfortunately, it is rather tedious to propagate the entire thread that way; as you must know after doing it with this thread :-)
    ____________________________________
    http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww240/supallas/SteveSJBS%2048w_zpsg8cskcue.jpg ...... 2004 660 Camo, "Rhino". And now, also a Wolverine X4. "Wolfy".
    |___________________________________
    | Two roads diverged in a wood,
    | I took the one less traveled by....
    | Oh, Oh .

    | .............
    | ...............
    | ............... #
    |___________________________________

  16. #10
    Vendor Baxter Built Fabrications's Avatar
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    Quick little example and laim tech joke.lol The boat factory I worked at had some issues years ago.Boats don't have frames so there is a grounding lug that distributes grounds as a frame does.But what got them into trouble was the circuit went in this order. (BATTERY to frame/ground lug)(Engine to frame/ground lug).works great till corrosion or loose cables happen then you have a back feeding nightmare and it can creates major hot spot.The way they fixed it was grounding (battery to frame) (battery to engine) (engine to frame) and then (from engine to engine in twin and triple engine installations).That creates redundancy and the comment my buddy made to the electrical engineer there was"if you would have dundant right in the first place we wouldn't be redundanting it again."lol Wiring can cause major problem if not done right.I've seen a harness 3" in diameter harness at it's main leg look like a lit fuse in a million dollar boat.That was a different prob but WOW did it make a huge mess.Turned thousands of feet of wire into a toaster oven.Let's just say that dude was having a very bad day and no one caught his mistake to power was thrown to the boat.This may not pertain to our Rhino's but it pays to research before hacking a harness and think your doing it right.
    08 Resurrected Rhino build and your custom SXS fabrication shop @ Baxter Built Fabrications. Give me a call at 419-953-8509 if you have any questions.

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